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	<title>Comments on: A Neo-Progressive Manifesto</title>
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	<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/</link>
	<description>if writing is a muscle, this is my gym</description>
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		<title>By: Renjie Butalid &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Young People in Politics</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-428831</link>
		<dc:creator>Renjie Butalid &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Young People in Politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 08:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-428831</guid>
		<description>[...] has already stopped dead in its tracks. It seems that David Eaves may be right, writing in the Neo-Progressive Manifesto:  Dear conservatives on the Left and Right – and those beholden to them. We would like to break [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has already stopped dead in its tracks. It seems that David Eaves may be right, writing in the Neo-Progressive Manifesto:  Dear conservatives on the Left and Right – and those beholden to them. We would like to break [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Renjie Butalid &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Young People in Politics</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-428830</link>
		<dc:creator>Renjie Butalid &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Young People in Politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 08:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-428830</guid>
		<description>[...] It seems that David Eaves may be right, writing in the Neo-Progressive Manifesto: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It seems that David Eaves may be right, writing in the Neo-Progressive Manifesto: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ChangeCamp: Next : Remarkk!</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419317</link>
		<dc:creator>ChangeCamp: Next : Remarkk!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419317</guid>
		<description>[...] on the values driving many in the so-called &#8220;open movement&#8221; with his recent post dubbed A Neo-Progressive Manifesto. While some of the specific values he proposes may be debatable, the themes of human-scale, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on the values driving many in the so-called &#8220;open movement&#8221; with his recent post dubbed A Neo-Progressive Manifesto. While some of the specific values he proposes may be debatable, the themes of human-scale, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ChangeCamp: Next : ChangeCamp</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419311</link>
		<dc:creator>ChangeCamp: Next : ChangeCamp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419311</guid>
		<description>[...] on the values driving many in the so-called &#8220;open movement&#8221; with his recent post dubbed A Neo-Progressive Manifesto.  While some of the specific values he proposes may be debatable, the themes of human-scale, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on the values driving many in the so-called &#8220;open movement&#8221; with his recent post dubbed A Neo-Progressive Manifesto.  While some of the specific values he proposes may be debatable, the themes of human-scale, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: toddsieling</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419263</link>
		<dc:creator>toddsieling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419263</guid>
		<description>David, this is some excellent work. Much of what I read rings true and is a great rallying cry of the transition we find ourselves in, though two parts in particular chafe:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The first is the us vs. them framing. The manifesto (rightly) speaks to global problems, but roots itself in the divisiveness that has hampered us from taking that first and necessary step as a global species. It&#039;s a huge aspect of the manifesto, but if this is a work in progress, I think it&#039;s worthwhile to reconsider divisive rhetoric.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The second is citation of specific people who are examples that the manifesto seems to endorse. Anyone will likely be able to name someone who isn&#039;t on the list and should be, and some who are on the list and shouldn&#039;t. I find little to admire in Google&#039;s founders other than engineering acumen, and resent their ethos of Machina Uber Alles. We could probably have a great discussion about whether I&#039;m right or wrong on that, but the point is that bringing in specific names hampers the momentum and energy of the manifesto. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Again, awesome piece of work and worth reading even with the chafes. I started reading your blog after watching you speak at City Hall on open data, and am better for doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, this is some excellent work. Much of what I read rings true and is a great rallying cry of the transition we find ourselves in, though two parts in particular chafe:</p>
<p>The first is the us vs. them framing. The manifesto (rightly) speaks to global problems, but roots itself in the divisiveness that has hampered us from taking that first and necessary step as a global species. It&#39;s a huge aspect of the manifesto, but if this is a work in progress, I think it&#39;s worthwhile to reconsider divisive rhetoric.</p>
<p>The second is citation of specific people who are examples that the manifesto seems to endorse. Anyone will likely be able to name someone who isn&#39;t on the list and should be, and some who are on the list and shouldn&#39;t. I find little to admire in Google&#39;s founders other than engineering acumen, and resent their ethos of Machina Uber Alles. We could probably have a great discussion about whether I&#39;m right or wrong on that, but the point is that bringing in specific names hampers the momentum and energy of the manifesto. </p>
<p>Again, awesome piece of work and worth reading even with the chafes. I started reading your blog after watching you speak at City Hall on open data, and am better for doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Lybbert</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419261</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Lybbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 01:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419261</guid>
		<description>&gt; I&#039;m not sure this absolves The Right who have spent the last 3 decades not trying to renew or reform these institutions but simply erase them altogether.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Off the top of my head, the last reform effort to fail in the US was an attempt to actually invest the money that flows into Social Security.  Originally many workers paid into Social Security and that money paid a few retirees.  There was no effort to manage the money beyond rooting out fraud.  That is only sustainable when there are many workers to a few retirees.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton made some reforms to Social Security, so that today money that foes into Social Security is &quot;invested&quot; in federal bonds.  Not only are federal bonds a low yield investment ( &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.treasurydirect.gov/news/pressroom/currenteebondratespr.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.treasurydirect.gov/news/pressroom/cu...&lt;/a&gt; ) but the money to pay any increase will come from the government.  That is just as unsustainable as the old system.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The right has floated the idea of investing that money in other things since at least the 1980s.  Clearly the devil is in the details, but that kind of reform would not necessarily dismantle Social Security.  It would dismantle certain aspects of Social Security, but I believe those losses are warranted under creative destruction, as it would replace a system known to be unsustainable with a system that could be sustainable.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I will give Bill Clinton credit for doing a good job of reforming US welfare to a more sustainable model (or models, as a cornerstone of the reform was to allow states to set their own guidelines, policies and procedures).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&gt; Indeed the anti-New Deal rhetoric to come out of the right has made any collaboration with the moderate Left over renewal impossible.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Original New Deal is a perfect example of a bad &quot;smart growth&quot; system.  &quot;[J]udging by other depressions and recessions; the Great Depression was unusually long, not unusually short. Arguing that since the economy eventually recovered the New Deal was a success is like arguing that if the doctor bleeds the patient and the patient survives and eventually recovers, the treatment was a success&quot; ( &lt;a href=&quot;http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-great-depressions.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-...&lt;/a&gt; ).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The New New Deal is another example of a bad smart growth system.  It may well be that targeted spending would invigorate the economy, but should we bet on the government&#039;s &quot;top-down and trickle-down&quot; solution or the market&#039;s &quot;emergent and bottom up&quot; solution?  This is an example of requiring smart people in the government to never make a mistake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; I&#39;m not sure this absolves The Right who have spent the last 3 decades not trying to renew or reform these institutions but simply erase them altogether.</p>
<p>Off the top of my head, the last reform effort to fail in the US was an attempt to actually invest the money that flows into Social Security.  Originally many workers paid into Social Security and that money paid a few retirees.  There was no effort to manage the money beyond rooting out fraud.  That is only sustainable when there are many workers to a few retirees.</p>
<p>Both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton made some reforms to Social Security, so that today money that foes into Social Security is &#8220;invested&#8221; in federal bonds.  Not only are federal bonds a low yield investment ( <a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/news/pressroom/currenteebondratespr.htm" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/news/pressroom/cu.." rel="nofollow">http://www.treasurydirect.gov/news/pressroom/cu..</a>. ) but the money to pay any increase will come from the government.  That is just as unsustainable as the old system.</p>
<p>The right has floated the idea of investing that money in other things since at least the 1980s.  Clearly the devil is in the details, but that kind of reform would not necessarily dismantle Social Security.  It would dismantle certain aspects of Social Security, but I believe those losses are warranted under creative destruction, as it would replace a system known to be unsustainable with a system that could be sustainable.</p>
<p>I will give Bill Clinton credit for doing a good job of reforming US welfare to a more sustainable model (or models, as a cornerstone of the reform was to allow states to set their own guidelines, policies and procedures).</p>
<p>&gt; Indeed the anti-New Deal rhetoric to come out of the right has made any collaboration with the moderate Left over renewal impossible.</p>
<p>The Original New Deal is a perfect example of a bad &#8220;smart growth&#8221; system.  &#8220;[J]udging by other depressions and recessions; the Great Depression was unusually long, not unusually short. Arguing that since the economy eventually recovered the New Deal was a success is like arguing that if the doctor bleeds the patient and the patient survives and eventually recovers, the treatment was a success&#8221; ( <a href="http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-great-depressions.html" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-.." rel="nofollow">http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2009/05/two-..</a>. ).</p>
<p>The New New Deal is another example of a bad smart growth system.  It may well be that targeted spending would invigorate the economy, but should we bet on the government&#39;s &#8220;top-down and trickle-down&#8221; solution or the market&#39;s &#8220;emergent and bottom up&#8221; solution?  This is an example of requiring smart people in the government to never make a mistake.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteRabbit</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419258</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteRabbit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419258</guid>
		<description>I noticed the negativity too. The part about not being divisive was strange in a statement holding so much criticism. Having said that, the manifesto would lose much of its bite without the counterpoint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed the negativity too. The part about not being divisive was strange in a statement holding so much criticism. Having said that, the manifesto would lose much of its bite without the counterpoint.</p>
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		<title>By: WhiteRabbit</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419257</link>
		<dc:creator>WhiteRabbit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419257</guid>
		<description>Being of libertarian bent, I would not make individual liberty an afterthought but the central principle of any political manifesto, of inestimable value in and of itself. And I would be forced to abandon many of the above objectives, not because they are not worthwhile, but because they are impossible to bring about (through political means) in a truly free society. Other goals, such as ridding ourselves of protected and subsidized industry, are entirely doable and worthwhile.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I recognize that the above is a progressive - not libertarian - manifesto, and the fundamental axioms are different. But I suspect many of the above goals are impossible through any system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being of libertarian bent, I would not make individual liberty an afterthought but the central principle of any political manifesto, of inestimable value in and of itself. And I would be forced to abandon many of the above objectives, not because they are not worthwhile, but because they are impossible to bring about (through political means) in a truly free society. Other goals, such as ridding ourselves of protected and subsidized industry, are entirely doable and worthwhile.</p>
<p>I recognize that the above is a progressive &#8211; not libertarian &#8211; manifesto, and the fundamental axioms are different. But I suspect many of the above goals are impossible through any system.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Craghead</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419256</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Craghead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419256</guid>
		<description>Much of this manifesto is thought provoking and interesting. I don&#039;t agree with all of it, and I think some of it comes off as naive. The central core, however, seems to be to return to a more civics/citizenship oriented society rather than a partisan one, a society that is built around meaningful ideals rather than political position. That concept is extremely attractive to me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One major issue I have, however, is tone. Although the manifesto provides alternative visions that could be construed as positive, generally this feels like a negative, anti-piece. I want to build things. I want to create. I want to shape the world. And I don&#039;t want to do that by defining myself as the opposite of anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of this manifesto is thought provoking and interesting. I don&#39;t agree with all of it, and I think some of it comes off as naive. The central core, however, seems to be to return to a more civics/citizenship oriented society rather than a partisan one, a society that is built around meaningful ideals rather than political position. That concept is extremely attractive to me.</p>
<p>One major issue I have, however, is tone. Although the manifesto provides alternative visions that could be construed as positive, generally this feels like a negative, anti-piece. I want to build things. I want to create. I want to shape the world. And I don&#39;t want to do that by defining myself as the opposite of anything.</p>
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		<title>By: david_a_eaves</title>
		<link>http://eaves.ca/2009/07/13/a-neo-progressive-manifesto-generation-m-remix-v-2/comment-page-1/#comment-419255</link>
		<dc:creator>david_a_eaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eaves.ca/?p=1460#comment-419255</guid>
		<description>Max - very much appreciate the comments. On the last comment, I completely agree with you - indeed this comment is the thesis behind &lt;a href=http://reviewcanada.ca/essays/2008/09/01/progressivism-s-end/ rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; I wrote with &lt;a href=http://taylorowen.com rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Taylor Owen&lt;/a&gt; last September. It is about how the Left is killing progressive politics. &lt;br&gt;However, I&#039;m not sure this absolves The Right who have spent the last 3 decades not trying to &lt;i&gt;renew or reform&lt;/i&gt; these institutions but simply erase them altogether. Indeed the anti-New Deal rhetoric to come out of the right has made any collaboration with the moderate Left over renewal impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max &#8211; very much appreciate the comments. On the last comment, I completely agree with you &#8211; indeed this comment is the thesis behind <a href=http://reviewcanada.ca/essays/2008/09/01/progressivism-s-end/ rel="nofollow">this article</a> I wrote with <a href=http://taylorowen.com rel="nofollow">Taylor Owen</a> last September. It is about how the Left is killing progressive politics. <br />However, I&#39;m not sure this absolves The Right who have spent the last 3 decades not trying to <i>renew or reform</i> these institutions but simply erase them altogether. Indeed the anti-New Deal rhetoric to come out of the right has made any collaboration with the moderate Left over renewal impossible.</p>
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